In this case hidden dapple.

This is one from my first litters...(yikes, I keep them) anyway, no where on the pedigree's did it show "dapple" so, he is from a litter where the "bitch and sire" were both "reds"..

I now know to always....test for the gene!!!!

He is neutered, due to that "blue wall eye" it is not a DQ, but he's not show anyway, regardless, ya just never know what's hidding in the background that "somebody" may have missed disclosing!

I have other dapples, but knew the mother carried, so all is well. Single dapple is as far as I will breed.

What worries me although I like Merles and dapples, is the tragedy of what can happen if all precautions are not taken.

That's my .02 cents worth!

Poor baby.

It is true that including the merle in one's breeding program requires a dedication to responsible breeding practices and care when choosing breeding partners! Then again so does ALL breeding really.

For example, knowing about not only each dog's health and genetic soundness but what might be behind the dog (bad knees, bad hearts, other traits that may be "carried").

Not that I'm playing this down, believe me, 'cuz nobody is any more against the purposeful breeding of merle to merle than I am, but the only good news in such a case is that the small percentage of offspring that might be affected by such a pairing will at least thankfully not pass on those problems to their offspring as they are not hereditary in nature ... unlike the myriad of other health and genetic issues irresponsible breeders do NOT test for or take precautions to avoid producing! ugh!

I'll see your .02!

Oh, I get all the health tests done! I learned that the hard way. Bought a male from a "breeder" hmmm, and he was 4 months old, I flew all the way to Washington DC to meet her and check out all the health paperwork, brought the pup home with me onboard, on my lap. He lived to be a year old and died of heart failure. He never bred, fortunately, but I didn't know enough at that time to head straight to my "vet" and double check!

So... o.k., explain!! Let's take Psycho,(his eye makes him look like one) the dapple pic I posted..if he was bred, which he can't as he's missing some vitals now..you're saying that if he was bred with a dapple carrier or dapple that it doesn't mean all hell would break lose? Is it dapple/merle bred together over and over until the pigment is so badly affected that causes these issues of blindness and hearing disabilities?

quote:

Originally posted by Ratlady:
Poor baby.

It is true that including the merle in one's breeding program requires a dedication to responsible breeding practices and care when choosing breeding partners! Then again so does ALL breeding really.

For example, knowing about not only each dog's health and genetic soundness but what might be behind the dog (bad knees, bad hearts, other traits that may be "carried").

Not that I'm playing this down, believe me, 'cuz nobody is any more against the purposeful breeding of merle to merle than I am, but the only good news in such a case is that the small percentage of offspring that might be affected by such a pairing will at least thankfully not pass on those problems to their offspring as they are not hereditary in nature ... unlike the myriad of other health and genetic issues irresponsible breeders do NOT test for or take precautions to avoid producing! ugh!

I'll see your .02!

Jo, didn't mean to imply YOU don't test ... just saying how IMO that is even more important to the BREED as a whole as that affects offspring and generations to come, not just isolated dogs like a merle x merle breeding (which is NO excuse for breeding merle x merle!) and some of the most rabid anti merle Chi folks don't seem to be nearly as interested in the overall health and genetic soundness of the breed as they are in getting rid of merle and it's stupid and sad just plain hypocritical!

Sorry about your experience. It so often happens when we are "new" and before know better that we can be taken advantage of. A friend of mine purchased a female FOR SHOW from a TOP SHOW KENNEL and when she arrived she had a GRADE FIVE heart murmur! Of course when she explained it to the breeder he wasn't upset or surprised by this at all! Rather than return the dog and let God knows what happen to her while it this obviously uncaring breeder's hands she just kept her and loved her, taking her $2,000 loss. I had a similar thing happen to me in that I purchased FOR BREEDING a puppy that arrived with only one testicle, the other never came down (for the sake of argument let's say okay this CAN happen with the best of efforts in the Chihuahua because it is in the top 10 of breeds w/this issue -- but I did find out later this breeder actually BREEDS to dogs with one testicle which is VERY different indeed than just occasionally producing one!) ... of course I never bred the dog and when I went to have him neutered came to find out his heart was so bad they advised not putting him under for that surgery. Rather than get a replacement pup from the breeder and risk bringing these and other problems into my line I took the $1,500 loss and found a loving pet home for him that would take him and love him with his "issues" as the health and genetic soundness of my dogs is more important than money! LOLOLOL, oh wait, I forgot, I'm all about the money! We know this because I have a merle!

Anyway, it sux how people will take advantage of others and how some breeders simply do not feel responsible for taking even REASONABLE precautions to ensure they are producing healthy and genetically sound offspring.



No, you are right, if you bred your Psycho (LOL, well if he had all his parts) to another MERLE (DAPPLE) you would definitely get the same problems as with any merle x merle breeding and even more so since he is double merle to begin with! (God I would hate to see those poor babies ... the lucky ones would be reabsorbed in utero, thankfully for them!) BUT if he was bred to a NON-DAPPLE (MERLE) none of the offspring would be affected by his problems which occurred due to him having two merle parents. Unlike the poor puppies bred by irresponsible breeders born of two parents with luxating patellae, heart murmurs, legg calve perthes, etc.

The most idiotic reasoning for breeding merle to merle is to produce a higher number of merles to sell at a supposedly higher price, but it is nonsensical because in FACT with the percentage that will be born affected by the problems associated with MM one will actually not get any higher percentage of healthy beautiful merle offspring than by the responsible breeding of say merle x black tri. So since those purposefully breeding merle x merle are generally doing so out of greed, if they could be made to understand that it is counterproductive and in fact they will get just as many healthy merle offspring to sell (since that is all such people care about) that are unaffected by MM problems maybe they can make better breeding decisions based on the only thing they care about - lining their wallets. At least they would not be breeding merle x merle anyway. Then we only have all the other health and genetic issues they breed and the likely poor conformation of their "breeding dogs" in addition to their likely substandard living conditions and poor care they get as well to contend with!

*sigh*

quote:

Originally posted by Josephine:
Oh, I get all the health tests done! I learned that the hard way. Bought a male from a "breeder" hmmm, and he was 4 months old, I flew all the way to Washington DC to meet her and check out all the health paperwork, brought the pup home with me onboard, on my lap. He lived to be a year old and died of heart failure. He never bred, fortunately, but I didn't know enough at that time to head straight to my "vet" and double check!

So... o.k., explain!! Let's take Psycho,(his eye makes him look like one) the dapple pic I posted..if he was bred, which he can't as he's missing some vitals now..you're saying that if he was bred with a dapple carrier or dapple that it doesn't mean all hell would break lose? Is it dapple/merle bred together over and over until the pigment is so badly affected that causes these issues of blindness and hearing disabilities?

quote:

Originally posted by Ratlady:
Poor baby.

It is true that including the merle in one's breeding program requires a dedication to responsible breeding practices and care when choosing breeding partners! Then again so does ALL breeding really.

For example, knowing about not only each dog's health and genetic soundness but what might be behind the dog (bad knees, bad hearts, other traits that may be "carried").

Not that I'm playing this down, believe me, 'cuz nobody is any more against the purposeful breeding of merle to merle than I am, but the only good news in such a case is that the small percentage of offspring that might be affected by such a pairing will at least thankfully not pass on those problems to their offspring as they are not hereditary in nature ... unlike the myriad of other health and genetic issues irresponsible breeders do NOT test for or take precautions to avoid producing! ugh!

I'll see your .02!

quote:

Originally posted by Josephine:
In this case hidden dapple.

This is one from my first litters...(yikes, I keep them) anyway, no where on the pedigree's did it show "dapple" so, he is from a litter where the "bitch and sire" were both "reds"..

I now know to always....test for the gene!!!!

He is neutered, due to that "blue wall eye" it is not a DQ, but he's not show anyway, regardless, ya just never know what's hidding in the background that "somebody" may have missed disclosing!

I have other dapples, but knew the mother carried, so all is well. Single dapple is as far as I will breed.

What worries me although I like Merles and dapples, is the tragedy of what can happen if all precautions are not taken.

That's my .02 cents worth!

Do you know for sure that both parents are hidden merles or is only one parent a hidden merle ? I understand that reds can be hidden merle (or maybe I should say dapple since that is the term used in your breed). It would seem that he could have been safely bred to a female with NO dapple in her line. I think RL said something about both parents being merle/dapple but I did not see that any place else so I'm not clear on that score.
charly

There you are Charly! Wondered if your problem was solved with Pluba.

NO, the mother,(carries dapple gene) who is, "to look at" totally red, no signs of "dapple"..the father has been checked and he does not carry the gene, so that dog/Psycho..lol .. is the only one of the pups in that first litter I had that showed dapple.

That's what I was trying to understand. If he had his "bally wally's" and could breed..then bred to a non dapple or carrier, all would be well or not???

I've studied this to some extent, but have two black/tan females also, they show no visible signs of dapple, but I had the test done and one of them (sisters) has the gene..what confuses me is why only one sister would have it.

Anyway, this is the result of her breeding with a non dapple/carrier...

This dog is in no way related to Psycho either!

I really don't want to get swamped with dapples or I'll end up in a mess where I'll have to outcross again. The new male I purchased carries piebald... Him, I cannot breed with a dapple..too dangerous.

My original sire is 8 years old, not shooting blanks yet, but won't be too long before he does. I didn't breed him til he was 5 years old. He does not carry dapple.


edited: to add mother is hidden dapple/merle

quote:

Originally posted by charly:

quote:

Originally posted by Josephine:
In this case hidden dapple.

This is one from my first litters...(yikes, I keep them) anyway, no where on the pedigree's did it show "dapple" so, he is from a litter where the "bitch and sire" were both "reds"..

I now know to always....test for the gene!!!!

He is neutered, due to that "blue wall eye" it is not a DQ, but he's not show anyway, regardless, ya just never know what's hidding in the background that "somebody" may have missed disclosing!

I have other dapples, but knew the mother carried, so all is well. Single dapple is as far as I will breed.

What worries me although I like Merles and dapples, is the tragedy of what can happen if all precautions are not taken.

That's my .02 cents worth!

Do you know for sure that both parents are hidden merles or is only one parent a hidden merle ? I understand that reds can be hidden merle (or maybe I should say dapple since that is the term used in your breed). It would seem that he could have been safely bred to a female with NO dapple in her line. I think RL said something about both parents being merle/dapple but I did not see that any place else so I'm not clear on that score.
charly

Oh, geez, I'm sorry I misunderstood ... I thought you were saying he was a double merle and had some problem due to that ... I am so tired, not sleeping well these days, which is when I end up on here posting in wee hours of the morning! lol

So your boy is only a single merle then ... but just has a blue eye, well that's a Doxie of a different color!

Either way bred to a non merle there would be no merle related issues but bred to a merle yes you could definitely get affected MM pups! (I'm sorry I thought the issue was if double merle is bred to non merle whether the MM would pass on any problems due to double merle gene which he would not as they are not not inherited but only attached to two copies of the merle gene.)

Sowwy ...


P.S. Just a friendly suggestion if I may ... using the term merle carrier could be confusing to those new to the pattern as merle is not carried, a dog is genetically either a merle or not a merle - however the merle pattern itself can be visible or hidden. The merle (dapple) gene is a dominant gene, either present or not, never carried. I'm sure you know this but those "new" to the pattern might get confused seeing the term "carried" and then not understanding the merle gene's dominant mode of inheritance incorrectly believe it can be carried like other patterns such as piebald, brindle etc.

Actually, NO.. I did not know that! I was told by many, and the seller of the original sire, that the word "carry" was correct, or at least they thought it was.

This was how it was told to me: "This dog does/doesn't carry for "dapple" Piebald..ect., so I've been using that terminology for a long time.

O.k., wait.. let me figure this out again as I've been steered down the wrong path I believe..

Isn't that the same thing?? Carried?? In other words, cannot be seen on the dog, but can pass it on??

Your words: a dog is either Merle or not merle...

So, when I say carry's for dapple/merle whichever, doesn't that mean it's genetic?? Or is the terminology just unintentionally misleading?? I'm lost.....

AAAAAHHHHH!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Ratlady:
Oh, geez, I'm sorry I misunderstood ... I thought you were saying he was a double merle and had some problem due to that ... I am so tired, not sleeping well these days, which is when I end up on here posting in wee hours of the morning! lol

So your boy is only a single merle then ... but just has a blue eye, well that's a Doxie of a different color!

Either way bred to a non merle there would be no merle related issues but bred to a merle yes you could definitely get affected MM pups! (I'm sorry I thought the issue was if double merle is bred to non merle whether the MM would pass on any problems due to double merle gene which he would not as they are not not inherited but only attached to two copies of the merle gene.)

Sowwy ...


P.S. Just a friendly suggestion if I may ... using the term merle carrier could be confusing to those new to the pattern as merle is not carried, a dog is genetically either a merle or not a merle - however the merle pattern itself can be visible or hidden. The merle (dapple) gene is a dominant gene, either present or not, never carried. I'm sure you know this but those "new" to the pattern might get confused seeing the term "carried" and then not understanding the merle gene's dominant mode of inheritance incorrectly believe it can be carried like other patterns such as piebald, brindle etc.

The dapple gene cannot be carried. It is a dominant gene. A dog is either dapple or it isn't. Therefore your bitch is a dapple, even though you cannot see pattern, :ie hidden dapple. (based on your saying you tested the sire and he is definitely not a dapple). One parent MUST be dapple for any resulting pups to be dapple. It can be very difficult to see the pattern on some pups and the older they get even more so as it can become even less noticeable, or like in the case of your bitch not apparent at all. Any offspring (regardless of whether you cannot see any pattern at all) that you sell out of this bitch that will be used for breeding, you need to let the buyers know that it may be a hidden dapple and to not ever breed it to another unless they have it tested and know with absolute that it is not.

If you are using dapples in your breeding program I would highly recommend studying up on the pattern. It is not recommended to breed this pattern without having a basic understanding on the genetics involved as the risk and consequences that can and often do occur with those not familiar with it can be devastating.

Yes, you're correct Abominog! I did not start out wanting to breed dapples but after the test on the two sisters/ one showing no dapple, and one having the gene. I did end up with dapples obviously.

I must study this further. Although I've had few litters, as time goes by, I'd like to breed that dapple male I posted..black/silver..

Unfortunately, I was given incorrect information and am so pleased I asked the questions re: dapples as..fortunately, I have not bred enough to run into trouble causing any poor little pups to suffer the consequences. That pleases me!

Well, I have got some learnin' to do!

Thanks for the post!

edited to add: Yes, total disclosure re: dapple gene to potential buyers and breeding rights is priority.. It worries me that they won't adhere though!

quote:

Originally posted by Abominog:
The dapple gene cannot be carried. It is a dominant gene. A dog is either dapple or it isn't. Therefore your bitch is a dapple, even though you cannot see pattern, :ie hidden dapple. (based on your saying you tested the sire and he is definitely not a dapple). One parent MUST be dapple for any resulting pups to be dapple. It can be very difficult to see the pattern on some pups and the older they get even more so as it can become even less noticeable, or like in the case of your bitch not apparent at all. Any offspring (regardless of whether you cannot see any pattern at all) that you sell out of this bitch that will be used for breeding, you need to let the buyers know that it may be a hidden dapple and to not ever breed it to another unless they have it tested and know with absolute that it is not.

If you are using dapples in your breeding program I would highly recommend studying up on the pattern. It is not recommended to breed this pattern without having a basic understanding on the genetics involved as the risk and consequences that can and often do occur with those not familiar with it can be devastating.

In some breeds the merles are (or were) called "splashed" (Collies ?) & in some its merles (chihuahuas) & of course the dapple
in Doxies. All the same gene so if you look at some of those breeders' sites you will see some very good explanations. A Corgi Breeder has a really good one but I can't remember the name
(Aragon I think for the Corgi one if you do a search). Then the Catahoula breeders have some really good info on merles. Of course you probably know the good sites for Doxie info. It is a very interesting gene. A lot like bleach in it's work on coat colors to my way of thinking except the hidden ones. All the different shades of red seem to be able to hide it. Creams are included. Study puppies very carefully the minute they get dry (take pictures if possible). We have a boy right now that I believe is a hidden merle & he is mostly black. The co-owner does not think he is but he is being placed as a pet anyway.
charly
P.S. My computer problems are not gone but things are a little better.

This is why it is so important for those that breed merle (like the person who sold you the original sire) to KNOW what they are doing and to properly educate those they place merle sired/damed puppies with. (Of course knowing what one is doing is also required to breed ANY color or pattern responsibly as there are a whole lot of other things that CAN go wrong besides merle!)

In genetic terms when one talks about a pattern or color being "carried" they are talking about the fact that the gene is inherited recessively to other "dominant" genes and two copies of the gene are required in order for it to be expressed (whereas only one copy is needed for a dominant gene to be expressed). For example a black dog may "carry" a copy of the blue dilution gene (referred to as such because blue is itself not a color but rather blue is created by a dilution gene acting on the color black) and can produce blue when bred to either a blue dog or a black dog that also "carries" the blue dilution gene. When a blue dog is bred to a black dog that does NOT carry the blue dilution gene NO blue pups can be produced even tho one parent is blue because one parent simply does not have the blue dilution gene to give to the offspring. This is because when talking recessives and "carried" genes a dog must receive two copies of the gene in order to express it.

Piebald is also a recessively carried gene and it takes two copies of this pattern gene in order to be expressed, which is why two solid dogs, both carrying but not expressing the piebald gene, can produce piebald pups because they both have a copy of the piebald gene to pass down to the offspring.

Long coat is also a recessive gene which is why two smooth coated Chihuahuas can produce long coat pups but ONLY if they both "carry" the longcoat gene. Conversely, two longcoated Chihuahuas can NOT produce smoothcoated puppies because in order to be longcoat each parent must possess two copies of the longcoat gene so do not have the smoothcoat gene available to pass down to the offspring. In other words, if a dog is expressing a recessive trait it can not pass down any trait that is dominant over the recessive trait. In your breed there is long, smooth and wire coat, long being recessive to smooth but wire being dominant over both other coat types.

But as to merle ... merle is dominant, in other words only one copy of the merle gene is required for a dog to be genetically merle. It can NOT be carried. In other words a dog can be genetically a solid black carrying the blue dilution gene carrying the spotted gene. On top of that the dog could also be genetically a merle (which acts on the black pigment creating the lovely blue & black merle pattern--a "blue" merle is actually more correctly named a "black" merle because its base coat color is black). If a dog is not a merle it is a non merle but never a non merle carrying merle. The merle gene would never be carried, only either visible or hidden.

Does this help?



P.S. If you are not confused enough yet, the brindle pattern is dominant AND can also be carried AND hidden, depending on what other genes are involved!

quote:

Originally posted by Josephine:
Actually, NO.. I did not know that! I was told by many, and the seller of the original sire, that the word "carry" was correct, or at least they thought it was.

This was how it was told to me: "This dog does/doesn't carry for "dapple" Piebald..ect., so I've been using that terminology for a long time.

O.k., wait.. let me figure this out again as I've been steered down the wrong path I believe..

Isn't that the same thing?? Carried?? In other words, cannot be seen on the dog, but can pass it on??

Your words: a dog is either Merle or not merle...

So, when I say carry's for dapple/merle whichever, doesn't that mean it's genetic?? Or is the terminology just unintentionally misleading?? I'm lost.....

AAAAAHHHHH!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Ratlady:
Oh, geez, I'm sorry I misunderstood ... I thought you were saying he was a double merle and had some problem due to that ... I am so tired, not sleeping well these days, which is when I end up on here posting in wee hours of the morning! lol

So your boy is only a single merle then ... but just has a blue eye, well that's a Doxie of a different color!

Either way bred to a non merle there would be no merle related issues but bred to a merle yes you could definitely get affected MM pups! (I'm sorry I thought the issue was if double merle is bred to non merle whether the MM would pass on any problems due to double merle gene which he would not as they are not not inherited but only attached to two copies of the merle gene.)

Sowwy ...


P.S. Just a friendly suggestion if I may ... using the term merle carrier could be confusing to those new to the pattern as merle is not carried, a dog is genetically either a merle or not a merle - however the merle pattern itself can be visible or hidden. The merle (dapple) gene is a dominant gene, either present or not, never carried. I'm sure you know this but those "new" to the pattern might get confused seeing the term "carried" and then not understanding the merle gene's dominant mode of inheritance incorrectly believe it can be carried like other patterns such as piebald, brindle etc.

This is a GREAT site, explains Canine Color Genetics in easy to understand terms. It does not address the merle pattern but that's very easily understood in terms of either being present or not being present, although sometimes hidden, sometimes visible.

This site explains how the different color and pattern genes are dominant/recessive to each other, factors that influence the color we see vs. base coat color, and various modes of inheritance.

Enjoy!

Canine Color Genetics

Great site too!

O.k., now I know where I got that terminology mixed up..after your explaination I see where I became confused.

In fact, not only did I get Psycho from that first litter, but I also got a Long hair??

No I'm not confused now, just have to digest it all.

Thanks Abomni, Charly..and RL..the information has helped me tremendously!

This is way more complex than I had realized..

quote:

Originally posted by Ratlady:
This is a GREAT site, explains Canine Color Genetics in easy to understand terms. It does not address the merle pattern but that's very easily understood in terms of either being present or not being present, although sometimes hidden, sometimes visible.

This site explains how the different color and pattern genes are dominant/recessive to each other, factors that influence the color we see vs. base coat color, and various modes of inheritance.

Enjoy!

Canine Color Genetics