I say, "Yes."

I'd like to hear what others think.

Any hypothetical statistics on how long it would take under different circumstances? Breed bans, etc.?

When I was looking into Newfies, I learned of an early breed of dog from up there said to be the 'early Newfoundland' - the Landseer. I am not sure if they wound up incorporated into the Newfoundland breed category or not...

Same went for the St. John's water dog up there, said to be the early 'retriever', though that seems more to be a 'descendents of' thing. Anyone know more re: the Newfie/Landseer issue?

It's interesting that you mention that Ankh. Take the Persian cat and Siamese cat for example. They are both radically different from what they once were, and so you could say they have been eradicated, except they do still exist.


As for the Siamese cat, this is a very good article on their history:
http://www.oldstylesiamese.com/history.html

There is a perception of the Siamese as an oriental breed of slenderness and length. That likely is rooted in the fact, that around 1900, the cats that had been exported from Thailand, or that area, to Britain and bred there, were producing two distinct body types: what we call the old style, and the longer, more sleek form.

It appears that this pattern of producing two body types continued over the years, with no real intention to produce one or the other, until after WWII.
Then in 1966, I believe the CFA standard changed, or started to shift towards the lithe body and wedge head.

I know that even in 1974, when a friend of mine bred very nice show Siamese,her cats were not the extremes of today. But the "modern" Siamese, is not a deliberate creation of any group of breeders. It is a look that existed more than a hundred years ago, and which has been refined, to what the breed councils have determined to be the ideal cat.

There are still traditional, or "apple head" Siamese that are bred and registered in CFA, because the two body types do still exist. But of course,the larger cats do not fit the standard for show.

The origins of the Persian cat are more obscure. It's theorized that they were first brought back to Europe, mainly Britain, from somewhere in Asia,during the Crusades of the 1700s.
However, others believe that the Persian's origins lie in the Gobi cat,which came from Northeastern China. They base their beliefs on the fact that the Chinese also bred pug nosed dogs, and had a preference for that feature.
So the shortened face did exist, hundreds of years ago, but like the Siamese body type, it was produced on a random basis, according to the cats being bred. And while it was shorter, it was nowhere near the extreme of today.

It's said that the first Persians were bred with Italian Angoras, and then when the Turkish/Persia cats were brought into the gene pool, the body became cobbier, the head wider, etc.

Over time, the Persian cat produced some shorter faced specimens. At some point in the last century, some breeders became enamored of the look, and when it turned up in litters, they bred back to the type, to produce the
extreme look of today. I believe they started showing in the 1970s.

I don't believe you will ever see the doll face, and the extreme Persian, shown in the same association, simply because they are the same breed, and vary in description, only in the placement of the nose and break. That is
too little to define a breed, and since you cannot define a single breed in two different ways, those who favor the extreme, have managed to change the standard by the sheer numbers in which they have been bred and registered
over the years.

Interestingly, I believe GCCF and possibly FIFe, do not permit the extreme Persian. You would have to check their standards, but I am positive they are not allowed in Britain.

Germany is one of the countries now banning "deformed" breeds, including the
Scottish Fold. The Fold is a natural mutation, the result of which is folded ears. But the gene also carries the possibility of bone spurs and other skeletal problems. It does not mean people should stop breeding them.
It means they must be extremely selective about what they breed, and eliminate all cats known to produce the faults. The German decision was
based largely on a single study done in Australia, where the Folds were all
inter-related, from a small gene pool, which intensified the number of problems in their cats. At present, Folds can outcross to Exotics and I think British Shorthairs. Eventually the studbooks will close, when the gene pool is considered large enough. But this is an example of a natural mutation that does not necessarily have health problems, which are perfectly fine to breed.
(Germany has also banned all blue-eyed white cats, in the belief that they are all deaf, which is not true.)

Lorr, the original Newfoundland dog, as I"m sure you know, was one of the foundation dogs used by Lord Tweedsmere in the "creation" of the Golden Retreiver. And the paintings of it show this dog was nothing like the modern Newfoundland.

So, is the Newf a derivative of the Landseer ...or has it been incorporated into the Newf breed as a color/size variant?

Dunno. Never went into the history of its development. But the paintings I have seen of the "original" Newf was more a slender bodied Lab than anything.

quote:

Originally posted by PublicAlert:
Dunno. Never went into the history of its development. But the paintings I have seen of the "original" Newf was more a slender bodied Lab than anything.

Are ya sure that is not the St. John's Water Dog you are thinking of? Said to be the predecessor of the retreivers?

It could very well have been that, but it's commonly referred to as the Newfoundland. The fact that Nfld is an island, kind of limits the numbers of breeds that would have existed there, but I'm sure there were more than one.
Tweedsmouth (never get his name right) used flat-coated and wavy coated retrievers as well as Water spaniels. Sometimes the list includes a Newfoundland, but I have always wondered where he would have got one of those, unless someone who sailed had brought home one that was referrred to in Scotland as a flat coated.

I found part of an article that interviewed Elma Stonex, one of the acknowledged experts on Golden history. This is what she had to say about the Newfoundland heredity in development of the Golden:

"The black Wavy-Coats had acquired beauty and nobility, courage, love of water and keen scenting ability from their Newfoundland and setter forebears from which combination they are known to have descended. It is important, however, to identify the type of Newfoundland referred to in the line of descent, as there was more than one variety. To develop retrievers of the desired moderate size it would not have been practical to resort to the massive Newfoundland such as we know today or such as had been known in England long before. Credit must be given to the St. John's Newfoundland which first appeared on the shores of England in the early 1800's aboard fishing vessels from North America. Because of the proximity of the provinces whence they came, the St. John's Dogs were also referred to as Labradors. Their influence on all retriever breeds is indisputable, but the early nomenclature must not be confused with the pure breed of Labrador developed several decades later. The smaller Newfoundland is believed to have been indigenous to the provinces, while the larger variety with their tremendous coats resulted from crosses with Pyrenean Mountain Dogs which came with ships from Spain"

I love you guys

Those posts cleared a bunch up for me.

I wish I could find the picture I had. The dog was much along the lines of a Lab, but more slender, and a bit of a longer coat. No doubt they were actually crossed in with other breeds as well.

The tahl-tan beardog is extinct. It was mongrelized out of existence. The last known specimens (about 4 or 5 of them) was alive in 1984, and I think about 3 of those were spayed/neutered.

I don't know about extinct but lots of those UGLY puggles out there. MM

Designer Disasters

quote:

Originally posted by Lorraine:
So, is the Newf a derivative of the Landseer ...or has it been incorporated into the Newf breed as a color/size variant?

In the US, the Landseer is considered a different color pattern.

I'm no expert on the breed (WAY too much drool for me), but my best friend has 3 of them. She's mentioned to me that if you breed Landseer to Landseer on any kind of consistent basis, you'll rapidly wind up with a dog that no longer resembles a newfie. Type gets lost really quickly.

Any breed can become extinct for any reason. It's up to responsible breeders to breed for the healthiest specimens that are correct in type to prevent the whole of the population from having serious health issues.

Germany is very strict on breeding in general. I can see why they think it's a good thing, however are so closed minded it will become a bad thing.

Thanks for the history lessons ladies. Much enjoyed.

quote:

Originally posted by Murreydobe:

quote:

Originally posted by Lorraine:
So, is the Newf a derivative of the Landseer ...or has it been incorporated into the Newf breed as a color/size variant?

In the US, the Landseer is considered a different color pattern.

I'm no expert on the breed (WAY too much drool for me), but my best friend has 3 of them. She's mentioned to me that if you breed Landseer to Landseer on any kind of consistent basis, you'll rapidly wind up with a dog that no longer resembles a newfie. Type gets lost really quickly.

Thanks, Murr - that was part of what I'd been wondering.