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<Passion Wolf>
Posted
TAC NEWS, 4/18/07 CA AB 1634 AMENDMENTS AVAILABLE
As anticipated, CA AB 1634 (Levine) to mandate local permits to possess unaltered dogs and cats has been again amended, retaining the original bill scheme but attempting to clarify multiple provisions.
Text available at
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_1601-16...amended_asm_v97.html
(Either paste the entire URL into your browser if the link is truncated or go through California Legislature sites search function.)
http://www.theanimalcouncil.com
Good Pluba
Posted
I really appreciate you keeping me informed on this issue.
It's so nice to be able to push the Pluba button and not have to look it all up. 
Some are here because they hope to make a difference, others like to roll around in the feces. You'll be able to "sniff them out" in no time. -DJ's Doxies,
Posts: 3383 | Registered: Wed December 08 2004
<Passion Wolf>
Posted
Hu I aimed to please 
Newba Pluba
Posted
Looks like I was right at my first assessment of this bill. it is just as i thought, and is very acceptable in my opinion. it should not be hard for many responsible breeders to comply. it will mostly likely be amended few more time before it will be voted in to clerify some of the sticky points, but it looks good.
Like it or not, it has a pretty good chance of passing and spreading to other states.
Posts: 210 | Registered: Fri April 21 2006
Good Pluba
Posted
Sorry, Norma, but it is just this kind of ignorance that causes bills like this to pass. It is HARMFUL for some breeds to be altered at 4 months of age, it can take 1-1/2 years for some dogs to mature to the point of being ready for the show ring.
There are so many things wrong with this bill that it's hard to know where to begin. First and foremost, this is NOT a communist country and it is NOT the government's business if a person decides to alter their dog. PERIOD. But setting that civil liberties discussion aside, let's just say this bill was really about the animals (which it is NOT!) IF there was really a true concern about the poor dogs in the pounds and animals breeding willy nilly the government could provide free or very low cost spaying and neutering for PETS because it is Joe Blow down the street who doesn't get his dog fixed that causes those ugly mixed breeds at the local shelters. But ask yourself this: WHY if the dogs in the shelters are such a problem are we IMPORTING dogs from other countries into shelters in this country? HMMMM???
This bill and any others like it will support and encourage commercial millers, pet shops which support puppymillers, cause a higher number animals to live in substandard conditions without the love and socialization given by the caring hobby breeder, raise the cost of the purebred dog while at the same time lowering the quality and health of purebred dogs available because it is mostly only the lowlifes that breed for money that are going to be able to afford to breed.
Oh, and let's not forget how this bill will encourage an increase in the smuggling of sick and dying and suffering puppies being brought over in hubcabs from Mexico. Yeah, that's real good for the animals.
FACT: THERE ARE VERY FEW PUREBREDS AT THE SHELTERS THUS THE HOBBY BREEDERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM AND THIS BILL DOES NOTHING TO ADDRESS THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM AND WILL NOT STOP IGNORANT PET OWNERS FROM HAVING "ACCIDENTAL" LITTERS OF MUTTS WHICH END UP IN THE SHELTERS - OR MAYBE THEY WILL JUST BE DUMPED IN THE DESERT NOW IF THEY FEEL BY BRINGING THEM INTO THE SHELTER AFTER "FIFI" HAS HER MUTT PUPPIES THEY WILL GET IN TROUBLE FOR NOT HAVING HER FIXED - BUT INSTEAD OF TAKING CARE OF THIS PROBLEM BY SIMPLE OFFERING FREE OR VERY LOW COST ALTER CLINICS TO -PET- OWNERS WHICH ARE WHERE THOSE DOGS IN THE SHELTERS COME FROM THIS BILL TARGETS AND PUNISHES THE ONLY GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THE DOGS IN THE FIRST PLACE - THE HOBBY BREEDER.
Bottom line: it is NOT the responsible hobby breeders that are causing overpopulation of crappy mixed breeds that are in the pounds and this bill will NOT address that issue. Yeah, isn't it great that the future of the breeds SOME of us love with a passion will be even more so in the hands of the millers and pet shops? God forbid. Disgusting.
Posts: 3789 | Location (City, State): SoCA | Registered: Sun January 11 2004
Pluba Freshman
Posted
Well said RL. You said everything I was trying to think of and couldn't.
I will be danged if I am going to let the government decide what I do with my animals. Though I have already chosen not to breed anymore, I still refuse to be told what to do.
Damn good Guitarist-loving girl!!
Posts: 738 | Location (City, State): Waiting for Timmy like a lonely puppy | Registered: Thu August 10 2006
Newba Pluba
Posted
With that said, don't ever complain again about BYBs and PMs that ruining your breed and bringing down prices. Don't complain about breeders who sell intact dogs with no s/p contract. Don’t complain about poor quality dogs being bred over and over again. Don't complain about the shelter populations and the thousands of dogs that are being killed there everyday. Don’t complain about breeders who breed designer breeds. Don’t complain about people you see outside Wal-Mart with a cart full of pups. If you are against the government trying to control any type of breeding, then you have no right complaining about anything.
Read this bill carefully. The only breeding it really intends to prohibit are mutts. It gives pure breed owners and breeders several venues to get a license so they can continue breeding. It is design to stop the out of control breeding, not stop responsible pure breed breeders. Responsible breeders will be eligible to breed to their heart’s content as long as they comply with some guidelines.
If your dog is intended for the ring, then you can get an intact license for it. Even if it is not show quality, you can still enter it in many approved events once a year and still be qualified for an intact permit. There are many different ways for any breeder who will be willing to make the effort to get an intact permit. You do not have to move to the right zone, get a business license or get out of the state, although any of those things would solve your problem. With little effort, you will qualify. Those with unregistered dogs and mutts however will not be.
In my county it is $10 to fix any dog at any size and any age at a county shelter, yet most do not bother unless they are forced. Voluntary compliance does not work. If you think your dog is too young to be fixed, then you should have no problem backing it up with a letter from your vet saying so. That is one of the conditions for intact license.
What you now see happening with this state bill, I saw before with a virtually identical bill we had in LA county last year. The same people, groups and organizations bitched and moaned about it and tried to kill it, yet it passed unanimously anyway. This is why I said that it WILL pass. Nothing anyone can do will change that. The only thing they can do is instead of trying to stop it all together, they can fight for some changes on specific issues. Amending this bill to address some of the many legitimate problems it has, has a much better chance then to kill it.
I don't like the government budding into my life either, but with no laws, there is anarchy. For better or worse, society can not function properly with out them.
Posts: 210 | Registered: Fri April 21 2006
Pluba Freshman
Posted
Sorry, but law or not, I still won't be told what to do! Especially some stupid law that I believe PETA is behind!! If this bill comes to this state, I'm moving to Australia!
Damn good Guitarist-loving girl!!
Posts: 738 | Location (City, State): Waiting for Timmy like a lonely puppy | Registered: Thu August 10 2006
Exceptional Pluba
Posted
quote:Originally posted by Ratlady:
Sorry, Norma, but it is just this kind of ignorance that causes bills like this to pass. It is HARMFUL for some breeds to be altered at 4 months of age, it can take 1-1/2 years for some dogs to mature to the point of being ready for the show ring.
There are so many things wrong with this bill that it's hard to know where to begin. First and foremost, this is NOT a communist country and it is NOT the government's business if a person decides to alter their dog. PERIOD. But setting that civil liberties discussion aside, let's just say this bill was really about the animals (which it is NOT!) IF there was really a true concern about the poor dogs in the pounds and animals breeding willy nilly the government could provide free or very low cost spaying and neutering for PETS because it is Joe Blow down the street who doesn't get his dog fixed that causes those ugly mixed breeds at the local shelters. But ask yourself this: WHY if the dogs in the shelters are such a problem are we IMPORTING dogs from other countries into shelters in this country? HMMMM???
This bill and any others like it will support and encourage commercial millers, pet shops which support puppymillers, cause a higher number animals to live in substandard conditions without the love and socialization given by the caring hobby breeder, raise the cost of the purebred dog while at the same time lowering the quality and health of purebred dogs available because it is mostly only the lowlifes that breed for money that are going to be able to afford to breed.
Oh, and let's not forget how this bill will encourage an increase in the smuggling of sick and dying and suffering puppies being brought over in hubcabs from Mexico. Yeah, that's real good for the animals.
FACT: THERE ARE VERY FEW PUREBREDS AT THE SHELTERS THUS THE HOBBY BREEDERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM AND THIS BILL DOES NOTHING TO ADDRESS THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM AND WILL NOT STOP IGNORANT PET OWNERS FROM HAVING "ACCIDENTAL" LITTERS OF MUTTS WHICH END UP IN THE SHELTERS - OR MAYBE THEY WILL JUST BE DUMPED IN THE DESERT NOW IF THEY FEEL BY BRINGING THEM INTO THE SHELTER AFTER "FIFI" HAS HER MUTT PUPPIES THEY WILL GET IN TROUBLE FOR NOT HAVING HER FIXED - BUT INSTEAD OF TAKING CARE OF THIS PROBLEM BY SIMPLE OFFERING FREE OR VERY LOW COST ALTER CLINICS TO -PET- OWNERS WHICH ARE WHERE THOSE DOGS IN THE SHELTERS COME FROM THIS BILL TARGETS AND PUNISHES THE ONLY GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THE DOGS IN THE FIRST PLACE - THE HOBBY BREEDER.
Bottom line: it is NOT the responsible hobby breeders that are causing overpopulation of crappy mixed breeds that are in the pounds and this bill will NOT address that issue. Yeah, isn't it great that the future of the breeds SOME of us love with a passion will be even more so in the hands of the millers and pet shops? God forbid. Disgusting.
I agree.
you know I was watching The Dog Whisper and there was this actress that wanted a new small dog. and wanted Caser to help and guess what?! He brought over small dogs that were taken out of Mexico’s pound! Now WHY? If there are SOOO many in our pounds!
~*Wouldn’t life be great with background music?*~
Posts: 6134 | Registered: Tue April 06 2004
Good Pluba
Posted
TG/TW, people like Norma just don't "get it." This is NOT about pound puppies (HOBBY BREEDERS AND PUREBRED DOGS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM AND THERE ARE ALREADY ENOUGH LAWS ON THE BOOKS TO STOP BAD BREEDERS, PERIOD). This is not about anything but PETA and those other AR wacko groups getting their foot in the door. What they want is ZERO population when in comes to domesticated animals. WHY? Because in their demented and sick minds they believe that owning a dog (cat) is tantamount to SLAVERY. Yep, this is only the beginning. These are the same people who in their sick world would rather see dogs/puppies DEAD in a dumpster than being OWNED by anyone because they are not "free". Yeah, I wonder who has a better life, my dogs who have only to run, play, sleep, eat, and of course pee all over everything if they are a boy(lol) and have their food and water brought to them and get loved and cuddled and vet care, etc. for doing nothing but just being here or a "free" wild dog scrounging for every mill, suffering in illness or injury and left to die alone when its pack leaves it behind? And just WHO is the slave, them or ME who scrimps and saves and goes without so they have what they need and want? Ridiculous.
People who think this is really about the animals and shelter dogs are truly ignorant. And even if it WERE about that (which it is NOT) the bill is not aimed at the people who are responsible for those shelter dogs anyway!
Commercial millers, pet shops and puppymills must be thrilled to see this backwards kind of legislation being passed for it is THEY that will gain financially and the purebred dog that will LOSE terribly. This makes me so sad and literaly sick to my stomach to think of the kind of twisted mind that has nothing better to do than invade the civil liberties of caring breeders while there are true horrors that exist in this world, children going hungry, being abused, homeless people on the streets in need of medical and psychological help, etc. Surely we can come up with better ways to spend our tax dollars than this police state type of ordinance?
I'm with you, TG, with all the black is white and white is black thinking in this country I am definitely tempted to go elsewhere. GOD CAN NO LONGER BLESS AMERICA WITH ITS VALUES AND MORALS COMPLETELY ABANDONED AS THEY ARE!
I wonder, is there such a place as a country where Christian values are still the norm and things make sense????? 
Posts: 3789 | Location (City, State): SoCA | Registered: Sun January 11 2004
Pluba Freshman
Posted
quote:Originally posted by Norma:
With that said, don't ever complain again about BYBs and PMs that ruining your breed and bringing down prices.
Funny; the only person I know whom would complain about such a thing is a retail miller type of breeder. LOL---or someone complaining about Walmart coming to their town 
Posts: 640 | Location (City, State): San Francisco Bay Area | Registered: Wed August 24 2005
Good Pluba
Posted
quote:Originally posted by PawPrint:
quote:Originally posted by Norma:
With that said, don't ever complain again about BYBs and PMs that ruining your breed and bringing down prices.
Funny; the only person I know whom would complain about such a thing is a retail miller type of breeder. LOL---or someone complaining about Walmart coming to their town
Yeah, exactly. A caring dedicated breeder being concerned with bad breeders RUINING a breed has NOTHING to do with worrying about prices coming down - who said anyting about bad breeders bringing down prices and that that was a concern here Norma?
Lower prices have absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about - which is the FUTURE AND QUALITY OF PUREBRED DOGS IN THIS COUNTRY AND GOD FORBID PET SHOPS AND MILLERS ARE THE FUTURE OF THE PUREBRED DOG!! Breeders who care not for quality and everything for money.
If anything the price of purebred dogs will go up while the quality goes down and then few will be able to afford these costly miller/pet shop dogs or find a quality purebred dog from the smaller number of caring hobby breeders who are able to conform with these ridiculous and costly laws and withstand even more financial burden when they weren't making any money with their breeding programs anyway!
No it's not breeding for money just because the higher costs associated with compliance are a concern. Unless they are well to do, dedicated hobby breeders breeding out of a love of the breed go without for themselves and put any puppy "sale" money back into building their breeding programs and caring for their dogs and still lose money at the end of the day but continue to do it anyway because of love of the breed. But many of these caring breeders simply cannot afford further "losses" even if they are able to conform to the other requirements of this terrible piece of legislation. We will lose much of the only source the public has for finding a QUALITY, reasonably priced purebred companion, along with those who insure the future of the breeds we have come to love. 
Posts: 3789 | Location (City, State): SoCA | Registered: Sun January 11 2004
Newba Pluba
Posted
quote:Originally posted by PawPrint:
Funny; the only person I know whom would complain about such a thing is a retail miller type of breeder. LOL---or someone complaining about Walmart coming to their town
I was trying to cover as many complaints as I have heard over the years from all type of people and breeders. yes, price is a valid complaint I hear all the time. I complain about it as well.
since I only sell locally out the door, I got to share the market with and compete against local "breeders" and adjust my prices accordingly if i want to sell any pups. This is what a popular classified section looks like for my breed in my area on just an average week. 100% of those breeders breed for money, including me.
http://www.recycler.com/animals/advancedsearchresults.c...oolean&adsperpage=50
If this law passes, most of those would be gone leaving the market for those who actually know what they are doing.
I suppose my market is different then the show dogs market, but if you think this will be only good for PMs and CBs, think again. Although the supply will drop, the demand will stay the same. show dog breeders would be able to pick up the slack and rake it in as well.
that's what happen when the demand is more then what the market can bare. prices will go up across the board for all type of breeders, those who survive anyway. the extra revenue could be used to pay for licensing fees, shows, testing and better dogs for breeding since it will be much more profitable breeding dogs.
It will be a good time to be a licensed breeder in California soon. Too bad I am done.
Posts: 210 | Registered: Fri April 21 2006
Pluba Freshman
Posted
quote:Originally posted by Norma:
quote:Originally posted by PawPrint:
Funny; the only person I know whom would complain about such a thing is a retail miller type of breeder. LOL---or someone complaining about Walmart coming to their town
I was trying to cover as many complaints as I have heard over the years from all type of people and breeders. yes, price is a valid complaint I hear all the time. I complain about it as well.
since I only sell locally out the door, I got to compete against the local "breeders" and adjust my prices accordingly if i want to sell any pups. This is what a popular classified section looks like for my breed in my area on just an average week.
http://www.recycler.com/animals/advancedsearchresults.c...oolean&adsperpage=50
If this law passes, most of those would be gone leaving the market for those who actually know what they are doing.
I suppose my market is different then the show dogs market, but if you think this will be only good for PMs and CBs, think again. although the supply will drop, the demand will stay the same. show dog breeders would be able to pick up the slack and rake it in as well.
It will be a good time to be a licensed breeder in California soon. Too bad I am done.
You once said this is justice for you. So how is it that you benefit from this if you are no longer breeding?
Damn good Guitarist-loving girl!!
Posts: 738 | Location (City, State): Waiting for Timmy like a lonely puppy | Registered: Thu August 10 2006
Newba Pluba
Posted
quote:Originally posted by TimGal:
You once said this is justice for you. So how is it that you benefit from this if you are no longer breeding?
Actually, I said it was a poetic justice. It is time for others to deal with the expanse and the bureaucratic crap I had to endure for years as a licensed breeder.
I won't be benefiting from it financially, but just having the knowledge that those who pissed me off all those years are going to get screwed gives me great pleasure. yes, I know. I am twisted.
Posts: 210 | Registered: Fri April 21 2006
Pluba Freshman
Posted
Well, I guess to each their own then. Revenge can be sweet. I know 
I don't know about this bill settling in other states though. California is an odd duck. They don't even allow ferrets there. If you ask me, the political system in that state is weak! Meaning, they fall for anything.
Damn good Guitarist-loving girl!!
Posts: 738 | Location (City, State): Waiting for Timmy like a lonely puppy | Registered: Thu August 10 2006
Good Pluba
Posted
quote:Originally posted by Norma:
I was trying to cover as many complaints as I have heard over the years from all type of people and breeders. yes, price is a valid complaint I hear all the time. I complain about it as well.
since I only sell locally out the door, I got to share the market with and compete against local "breeders" and adjust my prices accordingly if i want to sell any pups. This is what a popular classified section looks like for my breed in my area on just an average week. 100% of those breeders breed for money, including me.
http://www.recycler.com/animals/advancedsearchresults.c...oolean&adsperpage=50
If this law passes, most of those would be gone leaving the market for those who actually know what they are doing.
I suppose my market is different then the show dogs market, but if you think this will be only good for PMs and CBs, think again. Although the supply will drop, the demand will stay the same. show dog breeders would be able to pick up the slack and rake it in as well.
that's what happen when the demand is more then what the market can bare. prices will go up across the board for all type of breeders, those who survive anyway. the extra revenue could be used to pay for licensing fees, shows, testing and better dogs for breeding since it will be much more profitable breeding dogs.
It will be a good time to be a licensed breeder in California soon. Too bad I am done.
What you are utterly failing to comprehend Norma is that people such as myself who breed out of a pure love of the breed simply do not think in these terms and the concern here is NOT about profit or revenge or any personal gain or loss - it is about the DOGS! 
Honestly I couldn't care less how this affects those who breed strictly for profit other than to be sickened that these substandard breeders will have more of an negative impact on the future of the breed I have dedicated my life to. My concern is solely for the future of the purebred dog in this country and the poor dogs in the care of greedy millers and pet shops.
And those breeders who you say "actually know what they are doing" - well if you mean knowing how to turn a profit at the expense of the quality and health and well-being of the dogs in their care to make a quick buck then yeah this bill will certainly help those breeders.
But THOSE are not the breeders who actually KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING - they are just making money at the expense of the animals.
A TRUE BREEDER BREEDS FOR LOVE OF THE DOG - PERIOD. But I expect you will continue to 'miss the point."
God forbid if this kind of ignorance and madness takes place t/o the entire country ... that will truly be the end of the quality purebred dog.
Posts: 3789 | Location (City, State): SoCA | Registered: Sun January 11 2004
Newba Pluba
Posted
I haven't missed that point, I just do not agree with it. I believe you can breed healthy quality dogs responsibly and still make a nice profit doing it. One does not have to contradict the other.
If you truly believe what you just said then this bill should make you happy. It will take care of most of those breeders for profit that sicken you. Breeders such as yourself, who are not concern with money and only breed show dogs for the love of the breed, should have no problem getting an intact permit and can continue with their “hobby” unhindered.
The fact that you protest this bill tells me your motives for breeding may not be as pure as they appear. If such a bill makes it to your state and it does affect you, then you are not the breeder you want everyone to believe you are.
Posts: 210 | Registered: Fri April 21 2006
Exceptional Pluba
Posted
quote:Originally posted by Norma:
I haven't missed that point, I just do not agree with it. I believe you can breed healthy quality dogs responsibly and still make a nice profit doing it. One does not have to contradict the other.
If you truly believe what you just said then this bill should make you happy. It will take care of most of those breeders for profit that sicken you. Breeders such as yourself, who are not concern with money and only breed show dogs for the love of the breed, should have no problem getting an intact permit and can continue with their “hobby” unhindered.
The fact that you protest this bill tells me your motives for breeding may not be as pure as they appear. If such a bill makes it to your state and it does affect you, then you are not the breeder you want everyone to believe you are.
This bill makes me happy. I would love to see it go nationwide. Although I don't agree with all the points in it, such as altering dogs at 4 1/2 months of age - I agree with Ratlady on that one, and for reasons in which I'd love to start a good topic about.
I bred for the love of the breed, and I did not profit off of it. And I know why I bred, which is because my love for the breed makes me strive to protect them. Nothing of quality in this entire world came from doing things half assed. And I would take any test, acquire any license and do whatever I had to do as long as I maintained the goal to presevere my breed.
This is not a fullproof answer to the problem, but it sure is a start. Did anyone bother to read the link Norma provided? I mean really read them? There is a woman in there selling an AKC registerd "English" Lab. It's a public listing so I don't believe there is any copwright infringement here......of course I omitted any personal information, although the bloke proudly displays it:
"AKC registered male English lab, 2 yrs, large blockhead, good natured, xlnt with children, proven father. He is looking for a good home with a loving family. Only available because I promised my daughter that she could keep one of his puppies. Unfortunately, as a single mom, I simply have no time or money to support three large dogs. Additionally, I worry about him as he is getting quite overweight eating all the extra puppy food... he is a beautiful dog and he needs a loving dog home to put him on a diet and take him for walks. We can't put him on a diet with all the extra puppy food that we will need to have available for the puppy for the next year. I have pictures to email. He loves water and is very playful but gentle. $200."
My jaw dropped to the FLOOR when I read that. This bill would certainly prevent people like her from breeding.
This bill is exactly what you want it to be Ratlady, for the dogs. So look at the bigger picture. Like I said before, it's going to need a lot of fine tuning, but we're used to that, we are breeders.
*****************
"Fall in love with a MINI..... everything else is just a TOY."
Posts: 6909 | Registered: Fri May 02 2003
Good Pluba
Posted
quote:Originally posted by Norma:
I haven't missed that point, I just do not agree with it. I believe you can breed healthy quality dogs responsibly and still make a nice profit doing it. One does not have to contradict the other.
If you truly believe what you just said then this bill should make you happy. It will take care of most of those breeders for profit that sicken you. Breeders such as yourself, who are not concern with money and only breed show dogs for the love of the breed, should have no problem getting an intact permit and can continue with their “hobby” unhindered.
The fact that you protest this bill tells me your motives for breeding may not be as pure as they appear. If such a bill makes it to your state and it does affect you, then you are not the breeder you want everyone to believe you are.
AGAIN Norma you have missed the point. **sigh** Your rationale and the rationale behind this type of legislation is COMPLETELY backwards.
This bill does NOTHING BUT ENCOURAGE those breeders who breed FOR PROFIT ... but I would not expect this to bother you since you think for profit breeders are just fine. Personally the thought of encouraging commercial millers and pet shops - who we ALL know support puppymills - sickens me. 
THAT is why I have a problem with this bill. I'm sorry that you and others don't understand the true implications and underlying philosophies that are part and pracel with this type of legislation.
My concern over this issue is NOT about me - it is about the wellbeing of the animals involved and the future of purebred companion animals in this country.
BOTTOM LINE: WHEN PET SHOPS AND COMMERCIAL MILLERS STAND TO GAIN, THE ANIMALS STAND TO LOSE, PERIOD.
Nothing more to say to someone who doesn't grasp that concept.
Posts: 3789 | Location (City, State): SoCA | Registered: Sun January 11 2004
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Back to Pluba.com Pluba Forums For the Critters... Breeders Corner... 4/18/07 - CA AB 1634 AMENDMENTS AVAILABLE
Pluba Forums For the Critters... Breeders Corner... 4/18/07 - CA AB 1634 AMENDMENTS AVAILABLE|
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| <Passion Wolf>
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TAC NEWS, 4/18/07 CA AB 1634 AMENDMENTS AVAILABLE
As anticipated, CA AB 1634 (Levine) to mandate local permits to possess unaltered dogs and cats has been again amended, retaining the original bill scheme but attempting to clarify multiple provisions. Text available at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_1601-16...amended_asm_v97.html (Either paste the entire URL into your browser if the link is truncated or go through California Legislature sites search function.) http://www.theanimalcouncil.com |
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Good Pluba |
I really appreciate you keeping me informed on this issue.
It's so nice to be able to push the Pluba button and not have to look it all up. Some are here because they hope to make a difference, others like to roll around in the feces. You'll be able to "sniff them out" in no time. -DJ's Doxies, |
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| <Passion Wolf>
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Hu I aimed to please
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Newba Pluba |
Looks like I was right at my first assessment of this bill. it is just as i thought, and is very acceptable in my opinion. it should not be hard for many responsible breeders to comply. it will mostly likely be amended few more time before it will be voted in to clerify some of the sticky points, but it looks good.
Like it or not, it has a pretty good chance of passing and spreading to other states. |
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Good Pluba |
Sorry, Norma, but it is just this kind of ignorance that causes bills like this to pass. It is HARMFUL for some breeds to be altered at 4 months of age, it can take 1-1/2 years for some dogs to mature to the point of being ready for the show ring.
There are so many things wrong with this bill that it's hard to know where to begin. First and foremost, this is NOT a communist country and it is NOT the government's business if a person decides to alter their dog. PERIOD. But setting that civil liberties discussion aside, let's just say this bill was really about the animals (which it is NOT!) IF there was really a true concern about the poor dogs in the pounds and animals breeding willy nilly the government could provide free or very low cost spaying and neutering for PETS because it is Joe Blow down the street who doesn't get his dog fixed that causes those ugly mixed breeds at the local shelters. But ask yourself this: WHY if the dogs in the shelters are such a problem are we IMPORTING dogs from other countries into shelters in this country? HMMMM??? This bill and any others like it will support and encourage commercial millers, pet shops which support puppymillers, cause a higher number animals to live in substandard conditions without the love and socialization given by the caring hobby breeder, raise the cost of the purebred dog while at the same time lowering the quality and health of purebred dogs available because it is mostly only the lowlifes that breed for money that are going to be able to afford to breed. Oh, and let's not forget how this bill will encourage an increase in the smuggling of sick and dying and suffering puppies being brought over in hubcabs from Mexico. Yeah, that's real good for the animals. FACT: THERE ARE VERY FEW PUREBREDS AT THE SHELTERS THUS THE HOBBY BREEDERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM AND THIS BILL DOES NOTHING TO ADDRESS THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM AND WILL NOT STOP IGNORANT PET OWNERS FROM HAVING "ACCIDENTAL" LITTERS OF MUTTS WHICH END UP IN THE SHELTERS - OR MAYBE THEY WILL JUST BE DUMPED IN THE DESERT NOW IF THEY FEEL BY BRINGING THEM INTO THE SHELTER AFTER "FIFI" HAS HER MUTT PUPPIES THEY WILL GET IN TROUBLE FOR NOT HAVING HER FIXED - BUT INSTEAD OF TAKING CARE OF THIS PROBLEM BY SIMPLE OFFERING FREE OR VERY LOW COST ALTER CLINICS TO -PET- OWNERS WHICH ARE WHERE THOSE DOGS IN THE SHELTERS COME FROM THIS BILL TARGETS AND PUNISHES THE ONLY GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THE DOGS IN THE FIRST PLACE - THE HOBBY BREEDER. Bottom line: it is NOT the responsible hobby breeders that are causing overpopulation of crappy mixed breeds that are in the pounds and this bill will NOT address that issue. Yeah, isn't it great that the future of the breeds SOME of us love with a passion will be even more so in the hands of the millers and pet shops? God forbid. Disgusting. |
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Pluba Freshman |
Well said RL. You said everything I was trying to think of and couldn't.
I will be danged if I am going to let the government decide what I do with my animals. Though I have already chosen not to breed anymore, I still refuse to be told what to do. Damn good Guitarist-loving girl!! |
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Newba Pluba |
With that said, don't ever complain again about BYBs and PMs that ruining your breed and bringing down prices. Don't complain about breeders who sell intact dogs with no s/p contract. Don’t complain about poor quality dogs being bred over and over again. Don't complain about the shelter populations and the thousands of dogs that are being killed there everyday. Don’t complain about breeders who breed designer breeds. Don’t complain about people you see outside Wal-Mart with a cart full of pups. If you are against the government trying to control any type of breeding, then you have no right complaining about anything.
Read this bill carefully. The only breeding it really intends to prohibit are mutts. It gives pure breed owners and breeders several venues to get a license so they can continue breeding. It is design to stop the out of control breeding, not stop responsible pure breed breeders. Responsible breeders will be eligible to breed to their heart’s content as long as they comply with some guidelines. If your dog is intended for the ring, then you can get an intact license for it. Even if it is not show quality, you can still enter it in many approved events once a year and still be qualified for an intact permit. There are many different ways for any breeder who will be willing to make the effort to get an intact permit. You do not have to move to the right zone, get a business license or get out of the state, although any of those things would solve your problem. With little effort, you will qualify. Those with unregistered dogs and mutts however will not be. In my county it is $10 to fix any dog at any size and any age at a county shelter, yet most do not bother unless they are forced. Voluntary compliance does not work. If you think your dog is too young to be fixed, then you should have no problem backing it up with a letter from your vet saying so. That is one of the conditions for intact license. What you now see happening with this state bill, I saw before with a virtually identical bill we had in LA county last year. The same people, groups and organizations bitched and moaned about it and tried to kill it, yet it passed unanimously anyway. This is why I said that it WILL pass. Nothing anyone can do will change that. The only thing they can do is instead of trying to stop it all together, they can fight for some changes on specific issues. Amending this bill to address some of the many legitimate problems it has, has a much better chance then to kill it. I don't like the government budding into my life either, but with no laws, there is anarchy. For better or worse, society can not function properly with out them. |
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Pluba Freshman |
Sorry, but law or not, I still won't be told what to do! Especially some stupid law that I believe PETA is behind!! If this bill comes to this state, I'm moving to Australia!
Damn good Guitarist-loving girl!! |
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Exceptional Pluba |
I agree. you know I was watching The Dog Whisper and there was this actress that wanted a new small dog. and wanted Caser to help and guess what?! He brought over small dogs that were taken out of Mexico’s pound! Now WHY? If there are SOOO many in our pounds! ~*Wouldn’t life be great with background music?*~ |
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Good Pluba |
TG/TW, people like Norma just don't "get it." This is NOT about pound puppies (HOBBY BREEDERS AND PUREBRED DOGS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM AND THERE ARE ALREADY ENOUGH LAWS ON THE BOOKS TO STOP BAD BREEDERS, PERIOD). This is not about anything but PETA and those other AR wacko groups getting their foot in the door. What they want is ZERO population when in comes to domesticated animals. WHY? Because in their demented and sick minds they believe that owning a dog (cat) is tantamount to SLAVERY. Yep, this is only the beginning. These are the same people who in their sick world would rather see dogs/puppies DEAD in a dumpster than being OWNED by anyone because they are not "free". Yeah, I wonder who has a better life, my dogs who have only to run, play, sleep, eat, and of course pee all over everything if they are a boy(lol) and have their food and water brought to them and get loved and cuddled and vet care, etc. for doing nothing but just being here or a "free" wild dog scrounging for every mill, suffering in illness or injury and left to die alone when its pack leaves it behind? And just WHO is the slave, them or ME who scrimps and saves and goes without so they have what they need and want? Ridiculous.
People who think this is really about the animals and shelter dogs are truly ignorant. And even if it WERE about that (which it is NOT) the bill is not aimed at the people who are responsible for those shelter dogs anyway! Commercial millers, pet shops and puppymills must be thrilled to see this backwards kind of legislation being passed for it is THEY that will gain financially and the purebred dog that will LOSE terribly. This makes me so sad and literaly sick to my stomach to think of the kind of twisted mind that has nothing better to do than invade the civil liberties of caring breeders while there are true horrors that exist in this world, children going hungry, being abused, homeless people on the streets in need of medical and psychological help, etc. Surely we can come up with better ways to spend our tax dollars than this police state type of ordinance? I'm with you, TG, with all the black is white and white is black thinking in this country I am definitely tempted to go elsewhere. GOD CAN NO LONGER BLESS AMERICA WITH ITS VALUES AND MORALS COMPLETELY ABANDONED AS THEY ARE! I wonder, is there such a place as a country where Christian values are still the norm and things make sense????? |
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Pluba Freshman |
Funny; the only person I know whom would complain about such a thing is a retail miller type of breeder. LOL---or someone complaining about Walmart coming to their town
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Good Pluba |
Yeah, exactly. A caring dedicated breeder being concerned with bad breeders RUINING a breed has NOTHING to do with worrying about prices coming down - who said anyting about bad breeders bringing down prices and that that was a concern here Norma? Lower prices have absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about - which is the FUTURE AND QUALITY OF PUREBRED DOGS IN THIS COUNTRY AND GOD FORBID PET SHOPS AND MILLERS ARE THE FUTURE OF THE PUREBRED DOG!! Breeders who care not for quality and everything for money. If anything the price of purebred dogs will go up while the quality goes down and then few will be able to afford these costly miller/pet shop dogs or find a quality purebred dog from the smaller number of caring hobby breeders who are able to conform with these ridiculous and costly laws and withstand even more financial burden when they weren't making any money with their breeding programs anyway! No it's not breeding for money just because the higher costs associated with compliance are a concern. Unless they are well to do, dedicated hobby breeders breeding out of a love of the breed go without for themselves and put any puppy "sale" money back into building their breeding programs and caring for their dogs and still lose money at the end of the day but continue to do it anyway because of love of the breed. But many of these caring breeders simply cannot afford further "losses" even if they are able to conform to the other requirements of this terrible piece of legislation. We will lose much of the only source the public has for finding a QUALITY, reasonably priced purebred companion, along with those who insure the future of the breeds we have come to love. |
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Newba Pluba |
I was trying to cover as many complaints as I have heard over the years from all type of people and breeders. yes, price is a valid complaint I hear all the time. I complain about it as well. since I only sell locally out the door, I got to share the market with and compete against local "breeders" and adjust my prices accordingly if i want to sell any pups. This is what a popular classified section looks like for my breed in my area on just an average week. 100% of those breeders breed for money, including me. http://www.recycler.com/animals/advancedsearchresults.c...oolean&adsperpage=50 If this law passes, most of those would be gone leaving the market for those who actually know what they are doing. I suppose my market is different then the show dogs market, but if you think this will be only good for PMs and CBs, think again. Although the supply will drop, the demand will stay the same. show dog breeders would be able to pick up the slack and rake it in as well. that's what happen when the demand is more then what the market can bare. prices will go up across the board for all type of breeders, those who survive anyway. the extra revenue could be used to pay for licensing fees, shows, testing and better dogs for breeding since it will be much more profitable breeding dogs. It will be a good time to be a licensed breeder in California soon. Too bad I am done. |
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Pluba Freshman |
You once said this is justice for you. So how is it that you benefit from this if you are no longer breeding? Damn good Guitarist-loving girl!! |
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Newba Pluba |
Actually, I said it was a poetic justice. It is time for others to deal with the expanse and the bureaucratic crap I had to endure for years as a licensed breeder. I won't be benefiting from it financially, but just having the knowledge that those who pissed me off all those years are going to get screwed gives me great pleasure. yes, I know. I am twisted. |
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Pluba Freshman |
Well, I guess to each their own then. Revenge can be sweet. I know
I don't know about this bill settling in other states though. California is an odd duck. They don't even allow ferrets there. If you ask me, the political system in that state is weak! Meaning, they fall for anything. Damn good Guitarist-loving girl!! |
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Good Pluba |
What you are utterly failing to comprehend Norma is that people such as myself who breed out of a pure love of the breed simply do not think in these terms and the concern here is NOT about profit or revenge or any personal gain or loss - it is about the DOGS! Honestly I couldn't care less how this affects those who breed strictly for profit other than to be sickened that these substandard breeders will have more of an negative impact on the future of the breed I have dedicated my life to. My concern is solely for the future of the purebred dog in this country and the poor dogs in the care of greedy millers and pet shops. And those breeders who you say "actually know what they are doing" - well if you mean knowing how to turn a profit at the expense of the quality and health and well-being of the dogs in their care to make a quick buck then yeah this bill will certainly help those breeders. But THOSE are not the breeders who actually KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING - they are just making money at the expense of the animals. A TRUE BREEDER BREEDS FOR LOVE OF THE DOG - PERIOD. But I expect you will continue to 'miss the point." God forbid if this kind of ignorance and madness takes place t/o the entire country ... that will truly be the end of the quality purebred dog. |
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Newba Pluba |
I haven't missed that point, I just do not agree with it. I believe you can breed healthy quality dogs responsibly and still make a nice profit doing it. One does not have to contradict the other.
If you truly believe what you just said then this bill should make you happy. It will take care of most of those breeders for profit that sicken you. Breeders such as yourself, who are not concern with money and only breed show dogs for the love of the breed, should have no problem getting an intact permit and can continue with their “hobby” unhindered. The fact that you protest this bill tells me your motives for breeding may not be as pure as they appear. If such a bill makes it to your state and it does affect you, then you are not the breeder you want everyone to believe you are. |
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Exceptional Pluba |
This bill makes me happy. I would love to see it go nationwide. Although I don't agree with all the points in it, such as altering dogs at 4 1/2 months of age - I agree with Ratlady on that one, and for reasons in which I'd love to start a good topic about. I bred for the love of the breed, and I did not profit off of it. And I know why I bred, which is because my love for the breed makes me strive to protect them. Nothing of quality in this entire world came from doing things half assed. And I would take any test, acquire any license and do whatever I had to do as long as I maintained the goal to presevere my breed. This is not a fullproof answer to the problem, but it sure is a start. Did anyone bother to read the link Norma provided? I mean really read them? There is a woman in there selling an AKC registerd "English" Lab. It's a public listing so I don't believe there is any copwright infringement here......of course I omitted any personal information, although the bloke proudly displays it: "AKC registered male English lab, 2 yrs, large blockhead, good natured, xlnt with children, proven father. He is looking for a good home with a loving family. Only available because I promised my daughter that she could keep one of his puppies. Unfortunately, as a single mom, I simply have no time or money to support three large dogs. Additionally, I worry about him as he is getting quite overweight eating all the extra puppy food... he is a beautiful dog and he needs a loving dog home to put him on a diet and take him for walks. We can't put him on a diet with all the extra puppy food that we will need to have available for the puppy for the next year. I have pictures to email. He loves water and is very playful but gentle. $200." My jaw dropped to the FLOOR when I read that. This bill would certainly prevent people like her from breeding. This bill is exactly what you want it to be Ratlady, for the dogs. So look at the bigger picture. Like I said before, it's going to need a lot of fine tuning, but we're used to that, we are breeders. ***************** "Fall in love with a MINI..... everything else is just a TOY." |
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Good Pluba |
AGAIN Norma you have missed the point. **sigh** Your rationale and the rationale behind this type of legislation is COMPLETELY backwards. This bill does NOTHING BUT ENCOURAGE those breeders who breed FOR PROFIT ... but I would not expect this to bother you since you think for profit breeders are just fine. Personally the thought of encouraging commercial millers and pet shops - who we ALL know support puppymills - sickens me. THAT is why I have a problem with this bill. I'm sorry that you and others don't understand the true implications and underlying philosophies that are part and pracel with this type of legislation.My concern over this issue is NOT about me - it is about the wellbeing of the animals involved and the future of purebred companion animals in this country. BOTTOM LINE: WHEN PET SHOPS AND COMMERCIAL MILLERS STAND TO GAIN, THE ANIMALS STAND TO LOSE, PERIOD. Nothing more to say to someone who doesn't grasp that concept. |
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